April 16th, 2010
Page 357
Comics for April 16, 2010 - Page 357
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April 16th, 2010 at 9:39 pm
ahhhhhh….big sigh of relief. wait is over. wait was worth it. ahhhhhhh….I can breathe now. That is just. lovely, JED, lovely.
April 16th, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Indeed, well done JED. As it should be, Zona becomes the only woman Mentl sees dancing.
I really like this whole “dance for the men” arc, and it’s not only because it’s so well written and rendered. I like that the women are actually taking an active, even aggressive, part in the whole mating dance. So often it seems like, in our world at least, men have to do most of the work in that dance. We have to approach, we have to ask for the number, for the date, pay for the date etc., etc. There are so many men who’ve NEVER been asked out, NEVER had a woman approach them, or get the check. They’ve had to do all that with women who seem to sit back and judge the man harshly. They’re with the wrong women, you say? Maybe, but unless they meet the other kind they’ll never know will they?
Not trying to start a gender war here, I’m just saying it’s nice to see a society where the women are happy to meet the men halfway (or more even in Zona’s case-or does anyone here think Mentl would EVER have made a move if Zona hadn’t?).
April 16th, 2010 at 10:07 pm
You’re really hitting your stride artistically, JED.
April 16th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
Mac, i get what you’re saying. It’s a sad, but natural, fact that Males must prove their ‘worth’ to the female to get into the nest.
There are some birds who build incredible nests to get a mate…. if they fail. They viciously destroy the nest in what can only be described as rage…. or maybe Blue um…. *cough*.
April 16th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
I don’t think Zona’s the ONLY woman that Mentl’s seeing, but she’s clearly the absolute center of his attention, as shown by the other women being monochromatic around the full-color Zona. (leaving aside, of course, such technicalities as how the human eye actually works, with its uneven distribution of rods [brightness sensing] and cone [color sensing] cells.)
April 16th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
@AdamZero I think the term you’re looking for is Blue BILLS… yeah, that’s the ticket!
April 16th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
Yeah, I know Adam. And us humans ARE partly a product of those natural instincts that say the male must “prove” himself.
But let’s not forget that we are also beings of intellect, and have used that intellect collectively to create a civilization where females can now support themselves AND their kids, and have the right to choose whether or not to do so. Women can and often do have jobs where their wages are close to or sometimes even exceed men’s. They often have their own houses, cars, investment accounts, businesses, etc.
In other words, women can now accumulate the resources that once only men were able to. Having all that, they should be able to pick up a check or buy a man a drink every now and then, right? Look at the Erogenian women-many of them look like they can and do fight besides men on the battlefield, and they aren’t at all shy about approaching men and making their interest in them known, as Sheahla and earlier Zona herself have shown.
Not that I’m saying women should now do all the work in the mating dance, not at all. I’m just saying there’s no longer any real reason for the burden to all be on any one gender, especially in this modern society where literally anything a man can do, a woman can also. So what’s for him to prove, other than he’s at least a functioning adult?
April 17th, 2010 at 12:21 am
MacNut, while I agree that recent economic opportunity allows that sort of equal opportunity effort as far as initiating romances, overcoming and changing the thought patterns from generations of culture bias will hardly come quickly or easily. You hear people ask all the time why sexually free women are badmouthed while men are praised for the same activity.
The Erogenian women aren’t fighting their culture to obtain the freedom to do this stuff without judgment from their own people.
April 17th, 2010 at 12:44 am
Whatever, let’s just enjoy the dance.
April 17th, 2010 at 2:31 am
Mentl is so enjoying himself lol, MAMBO! but in all seriousness me thinks something big might happen with Mentl and Zona’s X the more I read this arc…hmm
April 17th, 2010 at 2:46 am
So you think this is the calm before the storm Zangoules? I hope so to, and i know it will. This story is far from over (yay for that)!
April 17th, 2010 at 3:01 am
I think the impending drama is going to involve Zona’s mom trying to find out whether Mentl’s ensorcled her daughter, and Mom being none too gentle or kind in finding out. Could even see mom-daughter conflict over this…maybe even Zona’s ex getting in on it, and in Mentl’s face.
April 17th, 2010 at 3:04 am
Methinks Mentle no longer has a mental block/problem…
Teehee.
April 17th, 2010 at 3:14 am
MacNut, there’s just one problem with your otherwise quite accurate assessment. The problem isn’t just a mindset on the woman’s part. It’s also on the man’s part. I’ve asked men out…which usually worked out fairly well…and then offered to pay on numerous occasions, and been shot down several times by those men. Not every single time, but more than half.
How I was raised, the person offering the invitation offers to pay for it, or makes specific in advance that it’s dutch (both parties pay for themselves, often something done with friends more than with potential dates, but if it’s an expensive outing…), yet when I try to follow through, a lot of guys get defensive if I try to pay, even though I’m the one doing the inviting. I have money, I’m not afraid to spend it (wisely, for the most part), and I take pleasure in being able to treat others to something nice.
Alas, some men are so hung-up on having to provide, they insist regardless of the circumstances. Sort of like opening the door for someone. Whoever gets there first should check to see if anyone else is passing through, and offer to old it for them. Guys should simply say “thank you”, smile, and walk through the opening, not glare, grab the door, and demand the lady do an awkward dance-around to “get into position” to use it themsleves. Just as women should NOT glare and say “I can get it myself!” but should instead simply smile and say “thank you” to whover opened it. Simple enough, yes? Courteous enough, yes? Let’s all implement it…yes?
So I would encourage my fellow women to get out there, ask a guy out, offer to pay…and I’d like to encourage the guys to accept graciously, smile and say “thank you” and have a lovely time, both of you. (*this applies to f/f and m/m as well as m/f date dynamics, btw.)
Other than the guys succumbing to the same rigid mental definitions of what “should” happen on a date…I totally agree with you, MacNut…
April 17th, 2010 at 3:15 am
*hold the door, not old the door, lol
April 17th, 2010 at 3:53 am
Good response Jean. I’d like to go into why some guys may have issues with a woman offering to pay. Yes, some men are hung up on the “provider” role (even though it’s pretty much obsolete these days) but many men have also had the experience where the woman’s offer to pay is a test-and if he accepts, he’s “failed” and never gets another date with her (I’ve heard women talk about doing that test, so it’s not just supposition on my part).
So when you offer to pay, the man has to wonder if the offer’s genuine or if it’s a test. If he decides not to take the chance, he’ll turn you down flat to be safe. Of course it’s best to avoid the women who “test” like this, but if she seems decent otherwise, how’s a guy to know?
April 17th, 2010 at 4:11 am
VERY nice!
A fine artsy vibe to the whole page.
April 17th, 2010 at 6:09 am
Beautiful! Who would have guessed that these muscles hide such grace.
I agree with you guys that women should sometimes make the first move. On the right person, of course. (I tried it with some shy guys but it didn’t work out, they simply almost fainted :p Seriously, there are less chasers out there than there used to be. I see other girls too complaining. For heavens’sake, if we can survive getting turned down so can you)
April 17th, 2010 at 7:37 am
I don’t know if anyone has already asked this , but is it that impossible to ever see a video of the First Dance ?
April 17th, 2010 at 7:52 am
Beautiful. Can we get a similar scene with Tula, PLEEEEEASE?
April 17th, 2010 at 8:43 am
What Tricksterson said ^_^
April 17th, 2010 at 9:25 am
At this point, Zona must be experiencing emotions that she hasn’t had for several years–not only experiencing them, but embracing them wholeheartedly, and with a vengeance. She has no fear of the unknown, it would seem: She hasn’t First Danced for several years, she was frantic to find her bells, she knows she wants to please Mentl and not Rannik, she’s already on the Copper Path with Mentl–even back on page 127 Tula’d commented about Zona and Mentl that “Your cha feels as balanced as any two people’s I’ve ever seen…”, and she’s in a position to know (or, as Vito put it, “…you little prodigy, you.”).
Mentl’s fallen for Zona? Zona’s fallen just as hard for Mentl, maybe even harder. Regardless of the catalyst that sparked it, their relationship has grown and matured on its own. Tula–being aware of the “love thing” magic that Mentl can and has done–has never expressed any problem with it, so it couldn’t've been that bad.
I note that to date while Zona constantly comes across as strong, her heart is her potential Achilles’ heel. Any doubt and uncertainty she’s harbored to date have been related to losing Mentl. And not from battle or death, but that he’d change his heart towards her. Woe betide those two if, say, Shuach recognizes it and uses it against them. There’ll be hell to pay then. But Jed wouldn’t do something like that, would he? Jed? Hello?
Anyhoo, I don’t see Zona as someone currently trying desperately to hold on to what she’s got; instead, I see her as of this moment progressing forward with full acceptance of circumstance. In fact, I think the ONLY thing she fears is the potential loss of Mentl’s love. She can handle physical pain, but emotional pain would seem to be something else entirely to her. We know her mother has doubts about the circumstances of their joining together–i.e., Mentl’s first love song to her–but I hope that after it all shakes down, their love will be stronger and more rock-solid than ever.
Wait. This is a comic about love and heroes–of course it will!
April 17th, 2010 at 9:50 am
@JED - magnificent composite shot. beautiful flow. who is the big hortator in UL? he appears torcless and there should only be two torcless adults around, Yatta-Ta is elsewhere getting private lessons in Erogenian custom, We know Zona sees Mentl as he is (Yay!) but I also do not recall seeing this guy before, new character? He’s definitely not Rannik or Boric, although the testosterone shooting through Boric’s bod right now could probably grow hair on a cueball.
@JEAN, I apologize for my gender. We are chromosomally challenged, the lot of us. as to why I get doors for my wife after 27 years, I was raised a Southron (but I;m undergoing treatment for it).
@trickerson - 2nd the motion, Tula has been grinning at us for a few weeks now and attracting much attention, time for her to give as good as she gets.
April 17th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Oh, I am just HAPPY! love the dancing, love the looks exchanged–iit’s all about the magic of the moment and what they mean to each other.
April 17th, 2010 at 11:08 am
What Jean said. There’s same of us (and Jean, you’ve no doubt met them too) who look at women taking her approach with considerable appreciation, and respect. Here’s hoping my son lives in a world with more of them.
April 17th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Hoo-nelly! Knock that boy over with a feather! Nice job, JED!
April 17th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Heh, definately interesting to read the thoughts on different gender roles here.
Personally much of what I would say has already been said. Yes, the mindset of our cultures will take time to change- that’s a sad fact, but we WILL get there. After all, women can now approach men and there’s no problem there, is there? But some years ago they couldn’t at all; and as we progressed as a society it was still rare and sometimes frowned on. Nowadays, there’s no issue what-so-ever. So time is clearly having a positive impact on these issues.
However, I think everyone’s overlooked something important (but Mac got pretty close with commenting that a lot of women “test” men.) A lot of women want a “gentleman”- someone who will hold open the door for them, who will pull out their chair for them, pay for dinner, etc. I’m not sure why- I guess it makes them feel special? It does, of course, originate in times where women were considered rather feak and weeble and would have difficulty handling such tasks, but despite the very sexist birth of these customs they’re still strongly desired by many, many women.
Of course, this is off-set by the disturbingly high amount of domestic abuse- and it’s still far more common that the male is the abuser. (Of all het abusive relationships I, personally, have known of- and it’s a disturbingly high amount- I’ve only ever heard of the female being the abuser once.) I’m not just talking about physical abuse either, but of sexual or emotional.
Now, I’m not trying to point to a flaw in men in general, but in society, and it’s gender roles and perceptions of men. The fact that so many men think it’s okay to abuse a woman they’re involved with- in any way- suggests there’s a large issue and it’s not with gender, but with mindset. It’s that same mindset that leads to women desiring “gentlemen”, that leads to women “testing” a man to see if he can “prove his worth”, and to the unspoken rule that the man should do all the running to get the woman.
I’m not endorsing any of this- but it seems many people act as would get them the best results, which is a logical way to act. But that just leads to the re-inforcement of these mindsets.
Of course, the other side of the coin is sex. I’m talking about the act- not gender. Now, we’ve all heard of the stereotypes of men being “horndogs”, ruled by their genitalia; and the woman, of course, can be picky and choosy about what man she’s with because, hey, he’ll do anything for the sexings, right…?
Of course, that’s a load of bull, but it DOES have a basis in truth. A male’s sex drive is a lot higher than a woman’s- and it’s tied to hormones. If you don’t believe me, then I’ll take this opportunity to say that it’s one of the things trans people going on hormones are warned about. FtMs are warned of an increased sex drive; MtFs are warned of a decreased one. And I’ve never heard a trans person say that it doesn’t happen.
So our physical genders (and the hormones tied to them) push us to act in this manner- the man to persue sex, and the woman to, well… not as much. The logical conclusion is that, yes, men will try to do more to “get” sex- and if that involves wooing her, taking her out to dinner, etc, well that’s tied into the gender roles in society, and it all becomes a huge messy net of hormones and gender stereotypes.
…Aaand I’m rambling. So I’ll stop now.
April 17th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Strange how a dance where no one is participating, can elicit such awe inspiring responses, macnut jean and jason, all highly correct points, no solution. there isn’t one I know but nonetheless, can we not try for one? not just requests to genders? I’m unsure what else to do but act accodingly to such.
JE amazing dance, Zona is obviously an insanely talented woman, master fencer, champion warrior, beautiful dancer, strong singer, nothing by degrees that woman, all or nothing eh?
April 17th, 2010 at 5:04 pm
That, is, Noice.
Not noice as in sound, but noice as in l33t nice.
This was worth waiting for FOR SURE.
April 17th, 2010 at 10:45 pm
True, MacNut, I forgot some (we’ll call them ‘rather silly’ to remain PG-13-ish, here) women pull stunts like that.
Here’s a hypothetical dodge-the-bullet.
Her: I’m paying.
Him: No, I can get it, it’s alright.
Her: No, no, I’m paying.
Him: Are you absolutely sure? I can get it, no problem.
Her: I insist.
Him: Then I won’t argue any further with such a lovely, generous woman.
Two alternate endings to tack onto this last statement:
(if the date went badly…)
Him: That’s very kind of you, thank you.
(if the date went rather well…)
Him: Next time, it’ll be my treat, yes?
Politeness is vital, and sincerity helps.
(…Please note that the genders can be switched so that he’s saying the Her lines and she’s saying the Him lines.)
April 17th, 2010 at 10:47 pm
…James? To remind you of a perennial, eternal D&D saying: “NEVER give the GM ideas! *smakkupsidethehead*”
April 17th, 2010 at 10:51 pm
ICWT, no worries; if you open doors gracefully and graciously, then all to the good. If your wife has come to expect it from you, then I’ll presume she takes it as one of your many signs of affection and respect for her. if anyone else (female or otherwise) gets to a door before you, just smile, say “thank you” and make sure your lady (if she’s with you) gets to use the doorway first, lol.
Nothing wrong with holding a door for someone, particularly as a sign of respect. Just remember, we’d like to give you that same respect, too, sometimes…
April 17th, 2010 at 11:14 pm
Wow, wall of discussion. All very interesting. Jean - I’ll keep that little exchange in mind for future, many thanks.
I just came here to giggle at Mentl’s express. Heeheehee. He is so stunned.
April 18th, 2010 at 6:46 am
I love this wonderful discussion that has spawned in the comments.
James, I would like to disagree with your statement that men always have a higher sexdrive than women. I know that couples, who attend counseling for trouble with their sexlives often do so because the woman is unsatisfied and the man feels like he’s not ‘good enough’.(He’s supposed to have the higher sexdrive, right?). I have also myself been in a relationship where this was a problem.
That men naturally have a high drive and women a low is just another cultural gender thing we’re taught through our upbringing and culture. And it’s one that stigmatizes problems with different sexdrives between men and women. I hope that one can someday be brought down, so people can start to talk more openly about these things and the problems it can bring in relationships.
As for the new page, I love it!
The focus on Zona is lovely and I’d like to join the choir for a page like that with Tula, too.
April 18th, 2010 at 9:48 am
@Jason: I suspect that things like holding the door and pulling out chairs have little to do with views of women being “feak and weeble” and a lot to do with the fact that they’d have their hands full maneuvering very full skirts. I know I discovered the hard way that full skirts make getting in and out of cars a challenge that it isn’t normally and that’s without all the accouterments that make it really difficult . It would also go a long way toward explaining why it’s a gentleman filter. Lower class women didn’t have to deal with (and couldn’t afford) farthingales or hoop skirts and bustles, so lower class men wouldn’t develop the behaviors unless they were household servants.
April 18th, 2010 at 11:25 am
I kind of agree with Lora that the differences in sex drives between the genders has a lot to do with upbringing and culture. Men are generally encouraged to give in to their drives while women are heavily discouraged from doing so, at least while growing up.
At least, that’s how it used to be. This is changing in society with the growing extreme feminist belief that the male sex drive is evil and wrong and must be suppressed. Growing numbers of men are ” encouraged” to suppress their drives from grade school on, resulting ultimately in men with lower drives than women, and less willing to even approach women. It not really that they have lower drives, it’s that they’ve been conditioned by parents, school and general society to suppress their drives for so long that they don’t know how to “let go” under the right circumstances-something that has probably plagued women as well.
April 18th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
I tend to agree with james, as men are preconditioned, genetically and, in majority, socially, to having higher drives, though as always there are some women whose drives are higher than most mens and some men with lower than most womens. Though nurure will, have a lot to do with it, nature still gives men the need to plant seed wherever and whenever they can, whilst remaining a stable mate for women, and women need to appear healthy and have the ability to select mates with the ability to protect, and yet no wanderlust.
April 18th, 2010 at 5:18 pm
Lora, ICEKAT: May I direct your attention to Jason’s posting? The whole preconditioning & sex drive thing were posited by him,, not me. Jason, would you care to field this one?
April 18th, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Jean: Ooooouuuch!
April 18th, 2010 at 5:30 pm
The average biological difference in sex drive between men and women varies with age; and of course, if you’re talking about a specific couple then what matters is their own particular sex drives, not the average. Still, it’s useful to know that on average, the human male sex drive starts out high and gradually declines over the decades, while the average woman’s sex drive starts out low, jumps up for over twenty years (I don’t recall exactly how long) starting around thirtyish, then eventually drops back down.
So, it’s only during those middle years that men and women are about as likely to be the one with the stronger sex drive in a hetero relationship; before and after that, the man will usually be the one with the (significantly) higher libido. Still, I find it very insulting when women equate having a healthy sex drive with “only want[ing] one thing” — those aren’t the same things at all, and it just so happens that I’m a real person with the full range of universal human needs.
April 18th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
I mean “…what matter are their own particular sex drives, not the averages,” of course.
April 19th, 2010 at 1:38 am
My apologies, James. I was writing in response to Jason’s comment.
As for the comment on women not needing ‘wanderlust’, women have plenty. After all they want the best genes, right? What keeps both men and women in relationships is that it is a surer way to get children and have a provider for them(if we shall look at it in nature terms). And to ensure that the children you raise are your own…(of course this is somewhat harder for a man to be sure of, than a woman).
April 19th, 2010 at 10:27 am
…Snerk. Yes, there seems to be a bit of a Ja*** mix-up here.
Anyway, I’m fully aware that various things (age, nurture, individuals) will affect the sex drives. But as I said- someone who goes on hormones in preparation to transition genders will notice a HUGE difference in their sex drives as a result. (…Okay, once again- usually. I’m sure there’s variation, as there is in all things.) That suggests that, nurture aside, hormones plays a role.
Society, of course, lends to this role- I didn’t mean to suggests that the hormonal differences would be enough to lead to the stereotypes we experience, but rather that it plays it’s part. In fact, I’m inclined to believe that’s how the whole thing began, with the way hormones made us act when we were more… animalistic and driven by instinct.
Raven- Huh. I really never thought of that. A less sexist birth of gentlemanly behaviour, but still somewhat sexist in my opinion, since ladies were expected to dress up so much.
April 19th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
Ok, I really love this comic. I think the art and story is flawless. But I really hope this dancing ends soon. Sorry I just like having the story continue. I (and I assume everyone else) gets the idea by now. Thanks!
April 19th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
aPrincess - Thank you, very much.
The MacNut - And look at what you caused down below.
I’ll make my own comment at the end.
Jim Farris - Thanks, Jim. I mean, I do know what I consider the flaws to be, but it didn’t come out too badly.
AdamZero - Yes, I have destroyed my share of nests in my time.
Lictre - mmmyess… that’s it, all right.
Kris - Yes, this is just a part of how they party, and get down, as we say. Not a problem at all.
calisto - Was that a “Fuck Art, let’s dance!” I just heard?
zangoules - Well, Rannik is there, watching. But he ain’t drumming.
Gremalkin - Oh, First Dance is nearly over, but the story goes on.
The Macnut - Who says there has to be impending drama? You’d think good stories had conflicts or something. Oh, no. None of that. This is gonna be Nick Jr from here on out, you betcha.
Jean - Well, the morning after incentives would seem to suggest the same.
hans - Thank you, hans! As we wind up First Dance to the final pose.
Nimue - Well, she’s certainly brought grace to the martial elements of the story, hasn’t she?
Miril - As good as impossible at this time, given my time, resources and lack of training in animation. Sorry.
tricksterson - There is not one in the regular run, but I could throw something together for an incentive, if you want.
zangoules - Okay.
James - No “of courses” and no spoilers.
ICWT - The “Big hortator” pounding the big ol’ drum is Marr. He is not torcless, rather his torc is hidden under his big black beard, if you look closely. He is originally from the Bull Tribe, but fell in love with a Moon Tribe gal and silver bonded with her, electing to stay in the Valley Of The Moon. It happens quite a lot, which is one of the ways that ties between the tribes are strengthened and the gene pool is refreshed. Marr is a cook and a roaster, and is so good his position is as Ipola’s personal cook. If you looked closely you would have seen him turning the spit at the party earlier.
Karyl - Isn’t it romantic?
Joe- I’ve always liked getting hit on, myself. Saves a lot of time, not to mention fuss and feathers.
firegoat - Thanks. Mentl’s in a bit of a “whoa” moment, yes.
Jason - I’ll address some of what you say here, below. As you might guess, the author does have some thoughts.
ICEKAT - I’ve said it before that Zona is a physical genius. She fights better than anyone else, she moves and dances better than anyone else. And Mentl is about to give his assesment of her voice as well, and it will be complimentary. When it comes to physical stuff, she has that unique quality of being able to practice a move into reflex almost instantly, has flexibility and speed that seems impossible given her size, etc, etc. Here, though, is a list of things Zona does not do well:
Diplomacy
Algebra
Engraving
Flower arranging
Typesetting
Research librarian
Embroidery
Quilting
Model boat building
Watercolors
Crochet or macrame
And naturally, a lot of other things requiring that special kind of patience that doesn’t have a payoff involving ones’ enemies winding up in bloody bits on the ground.
Dragonson - Glad you liked it! Soon, we’ll be getting back to twice a week, so you won’t need as much patience.
Kunama - Indeed, He’s never seen this side of his gal before. “Stunned” is appropriate.
Lora - As I said, I don’t think there would be a problem putting something up as an incentive. Need a new one, anyway. We’re down to the mid-thirties,and that will never do!
Inquisitive Raven - I tend to think that it is a control thing, as well. More on that in a moment.
Scientivore - I can tell you that I have had relations with women between 18 and 63, and it’s still a crap shoot what you’re gonna get.
meandI - I hear you. Friday will finish First Dance.
But, to put it in perspective, there have only been three pages of First Dance, really. With the climax on the next page, it will be four pages of dancing that, if you were to read it all at once goes by quite quickly. I always have to require a bit of patience from you guys, unfortunately, because of the format of web comics, and expecially sinc e we went to just one a week. Thanks for hanging in there!
Now, as to sex:
One of my favorite topics, as it happens, and one on which I’ve spent some time and effort and innumerable mistakes.
The idea of “Sex Drive” is, itself, masculine in origin, IMHO. We look at it as though it can be quantified and studied, as though there are objective measures for it that can be applied to all people. I disagree. I think, for instance, that quantifying it at all across the sexes is a mistake. Sex is not the same for men as it is for women. What the male human wants and defines as sex is not the same experience that the woman has or desires. Physically, right off, there is a huge difference between the two just in the physical act itself. The man penetrates, the woman receives. They each, ideally, enjoy the experience a lot, but it means very different things to them and their pleasure and orgasm is not identical. So you cannot equate it precisely.
And you can’t say that a man’s or a woman’s sex drive is higher or lower except when you compare to the standards of their sex and their culture - even their family. Also, I think part of the reason why women are often less aggressive about sex in our and other cultures is because boys are not taught even the rudiments of how to be a good lover. It’s not supposed to be important, I guess, because it all just is assumed to automatically fall into place when you “fall in love.” That is, as we found out when we grew up, horse hockey. But the boys continue to get their ideas out of ignorance or through masculine pornography and then the girl’s first experiences tend to be just bloody awful. Then we wonder why it is that they have such a hard time saying “yes.” Now, in my little toy culture of Erogenia, it’s considered part of your regular education to not only be taught the theory when you’re young, but to get the practice when you turn 17 and get your torc. And you are usually taught by an older, trusted friend, sometimes a priest or priestess. And the experience is, while not always perfect, always intended to be supportive and fun. And so, when the lass or lad comes out of it, they at least know the basics of pleasure and aren’t handicapped by a stigma of virginity.
I still think that all the past crap about virginity is just patriarchal BS designed to make sure your kids were your own. And it doesn’t work much of the time, anyway.
April 19th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
Jed-in regards to virginity, I say “Hell Yeah!”. Historically it is VERY arguable that the reason weddings and Monogamy were “created” or became the “norm” was quite simple. Money.
The church/government needed to keep the tax rolls straight so they could get their taxes/tithes from the people. Before Virginity and Monogamy were so actively preached about, women had a right to own property, inheritance was through maternal lines rather than paternal, and marriage was not such a large deal. Also virginity was not a virtue, indeed a woman that had already had a child, and survived, was much more “valuable” to her society.
I really enjoy these topics of gender, sex, society, religion, etc, etc…but back to the story!
April 19th, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Love your reply to the “hot” discussion I started, JED. I’d just like to say one thing about the whole teaching boys to be good lovers for girls would enjoy sex more thing; unfortunately, in this society, that’s going to be strictly the job of the parents-and many parents don’t even want their kids knowing about sex (never mind HAVING it) before 18-or later. Many parents don’t even like the idea of schools teaching sex ed, and refuse to acknowledge the reality that most people (in the Western world anyway) have had and WILL have their first sexual experience in their mid-to-late teens, if not earlier.
Many parents can’t even handle “the Talk” about the basic mechanics of sex and how it makes babies, never mind talking to their boys about technique! A boy’s gonna have to learn all that on his own. Fortunately the info’s out there on the Web if he cares to search for it (and isn’t distracted by all the porn…).
April 20th, 2010 at 4:15 am
Diplomacy; Okay I can deal. Flower arranging; meh. Typesetting? Oh, god, that’s a nasty knock, but, okay. Research librarian; well, she’s beautiful, and honest , and brave and…okay, okay, I can handle it. Embroidery, Quilting, hell, we’ll wear animal skins anyway.
Model boat building. NOOOOOOO! How can I ever give my heart to a woman who can’t construct a model of the Bounty in a bottle for me?
*Sob* Sorry, princess.
Also, I feel strangely cheated that while everyone else is feeling all romantic and gushy (save for those rehashing gender roles, which I won’t get into, for I alas, tend to rant), I keep hearing the Crüe’s “Girls, Girls, Girls!”
Truth is, though, to me, this is all a poor second to Mentl holding off the Urts with a frying pan, or turning down the Kivilian Queen, Zona vowing to eviscerate the entire Urt nation for tormenting Mentl, or the ‘cha-balancing’ moment between Zona and Mentl. Those and others like them were the magic moments JED has given me—this is simply the result. I’ll add that I think, or hope, anyway, it’s going to take much more than Mum and Whosname to tear these two asunder.
April 20th, 2010 at 10:41 am
@ Professor:
I agree wholeheartedly but what you forgot to mention was the parents who do try to have “the talk” and end up screwing it up so badly that their child is either more confused, or worse absolutely terrified, at the thought of having sex. For instance when my dad tried to give me the talk all he really said were that men and women are like puzzle pieces and they fit together perfectly. That was it and I was confused as I could possibly be. Then my mom tried and she told me that sex was a horrible and dirty thing and I should never have it! Mentally scarring? heck yeah, i wouldn’t doubt that this is the reason I was a virgin till I was 20. Just thought I would chime in
April 20th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Okay, considering this discussion(which have been very interesting!), I feel obliged to post a link to a great blog on sex, gender and everything in between and around.
I hope you don’t mind, JED.
http://realadultsex.com/
It actually has some posts on anatomy and technique, which I haven’t seen in other blogs.
April 20th, 2010 at 1:02 pm
Mentl looks kind of mental in this one.
April 20th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
I found this comic just two days ago and read it straight until today. Completely blown away by the art and story, can’t praise enough the author and anyone involved, just as I can’t wait for the rest of it. Kudos!
April 20th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
@Xavier Welcome to the following, and wait until you get into the discussions more. Nicely realized world that you find out so much about in the discussions, especially with Jed participating and educating the readers.
April 22nd, 2010 at 8:11 am
MacNut- Okay, you probably won’t read this but I’ll say it anyway.
At 11, in my first year of “senior school” as we call it here, everyone had sex ed classes, where we learned how things worked. Many people (me included) already knew because our parents had taught us.
So saying parents don’t want their kids knowing is VERY much a cultural thing. It doesn’t translate to most European countries. Admittedly I don’t think any ‘rents here would want to discuss TECHNIQUE with their kids- I imagine the idea of their children having sex is akin to the thought of our parents having sex. (”Yes, we know you do it and that’s fine, but we’d rather not think of it, mmkay?”) But it’s not the taboo here that it is in America, and young men often have a different opinion to the one described here. I’ve often heard it said (and of course, found myself) that the best thing during sex is the woman enjoying herself- so many (although not all, by a LONG shot) men will try to ensure that.
Just my thoughts.
May 9th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
JED, I think it bears repeating (and explanation) that “if you’re talking about a specific couple then what matters is their own particular sex drives, not the average.” None of us here are going to have sex with a totally random selection of women whose quantity approaches infinity, so the statistics are far more interesting than useful. I wish that more science reporters would make that clear.